Rebel Vets Podcast

0:00:00
(Speaker 2)
All right, my guest today on the Rebel Vets podcast is Dr. Fred Hogan. He is a Navy vet that I met in the local gym. I noticed that he was wearing a lanyard at the gym one day, so I started a conversation with him about his time in the military. Our conversations usually revolve around the military, sports, and politics. He served in the Navy from 1987 to 1997 as an aircraft mechanic.

0:00:24
(Speaker 2)
He's a Desert Storm veteran, and he holds a PhD in education. Thanks for doing the show.

0:00:28
(Speaker 1)
Hey, well, thanks for having me. I feel honored and privileged to be on your podcast. As a matter of fact, this is the first podcast I've ever done. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

0:00:39
(Speaker 2)
All right. I'm glad you could be on the show. So just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you're from and why you decided to join the Navy.

0:00:45
(Speaker 1)
Okay, well I'm from a small town in Georgia called, basically two towns. My father lived in Wilkinson County, my mother lived in Milledgeville and I call it Honey Boo Booville because you remember the reality show Here Comes Honey Boo Boo?

0:01:00
(Speaker 17)
Yeah.

0:01:01
(Speaker 1)
That's the town I grew up in. So if you ever you looking at the reality show here comes Honey Boo Boo. I grew up in a little small town. I mean it's always kind

0:01:10
(Speaker 2)
of interesting when you meet people from Georgia especially like rural Georgia and that accent is

0:01:15
(Speaker 1)
so thick. I had an airman and he was like people thought I was slow because I talk like this? I'm like, I'm not. Yeah, and growing up in rural Georgia, there was really nothing there. So, our, you know, and we're talking about the mid 80s. So, your only outlet was either you go to college or you go in the military. You know, because there really wasn't that much,

0:01:42
(Speaker 1)
that many opportunities back then. So that's why I joined the Navy. I joined the Navy at 17.

0:01:49
(Speaker 12)
Oh, man.

0:01:50
(Speaker 17)
Yeah. Not even 18.

0:01:52
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, I spent my 18th birthday in boot camp. And it was really crazy how that happened because I was in the delayed entry program. I'm quite sure you're probably familiar with that.

0:02:02
(Speaker 19)
I'm familiar.

0:02:03
(Speaker 1)
And my report date was supposed to be August, August of 87, which was past my 18th birthday, right? I guess something happened. I got the letter that said, you know what, we got a spot open for you. I graduate at high school on a Friday,

0:02:23
(Speaker 1)
and I was headed to boot camp that Monday.

0:02:25
(Speaker 12)
Oh my goodness.

0:02:26
(Speaker 1)
And my entire 18th summer right out of high school was in boot camp. You know, and I had it all planned, man. Like, yeah, we're gonna go to Six Flags, I'm gonna do this party, all this other stuff.

0:02:38
(Speaker 2)
Oh, it ruined your summer break before you joined.

0:02:40
(Speaker 1)
Ruined my summerver, yes. Yeah, so that's how I ended up joining the Navy and I became an aviation machinist mate, which is a jet mechanic, and it was really fun. I really enjoyed my time there, absolutely.

0:02:55
(Speaker 2)
All right, so and then you mentioned in your bio that you're a Desert Storm veteran, so where did you get stationed after boot camp and then how did that lead you to desert storm?

0:03:06
(Speaker 1)
Oh, wow, that is a whole story in itself. Yeah, we got time. Okay Right out of boot camp. I got stationed in the Philippines NES QB point Philippines, right? And we talk in the 80s 87 88 and Being over there. I had to head to, I had to really use some common sense because that's a dangerous place to be, 18 year old with that much alcohol involved.

0:03:36
(Speaker 1)
Okay, being over there. Man, you can get a beer for a nickel, right? So the first opportunity I got to leave the Philippines, you know, I left Because I just I just said my body just cannot take this much drinking and stuff. Oh, yeah So the dollar to the peso? Yes. Oh my god, man. You can't go $5. Oh my goodness. You can go crazy, you know, so So I stayed over there for two years, and the first opportunity I got,

0:04:06
(Speaker 1)
I got out of the Philippines, and I got, I said, hey, get me to the first base in America. And this was in 90, before Desert Shield. And I got assigned to a helicopter squadron out of San Diego, California and That's when I got deployed on the USS

0:04:29
(Speaker 1)
Fife It was either the Fife you it was either the Fife or the Hewitt for Desert Storm Desert Shield. And yeah, that was Really challenging time, you know Being in battle, you know being in general quarters for two straight weeks and watching missiles and stuff So yeah that that that was the real deal were you deployed to a base over there? No, I was Or a ship I was on ship

0:04:53
(Speaker 1)
We was deployed out of at Sugi Japan My helicopter squadron was deployed out at Sugi Japan and we worked off of the USS Fife Okay, and yeah, we, yeah, yeah, that was, no, I guess the only silver lining in that cloud is that that war only lasted, what, three weeks.

0:05:13
(Speaker 2)
So it was over fast, but there were some harrowing times, I mean.

0:05:17
(Speaker 1)
Oh, absolutely, man.

0:05:18
(Speaker 2)
You never knew what Saddam was gonna do.

0:05:19
(Speaker 1)
It was three weeks of sheer hell. Dang. Sheer hell. We was at general quarters for three weeks and this was no training. General quarters, general quarters, incoming missile, starboard side, stuff like that.

0:05:32
(Speaker 2)
Oh wow, so you had to be prepared for anything that could come your way.

0:05:36
(Speaker 1)
Absolutely, absolutely. So yeah, that was the silver lining in that cloud that we was only there for three weeks. And then after the campaign was over, we did the embargo, which meant that we were stopping all the ships coming through the Suez Canals, searching them. If they was headed to Iraq, we would turn them

0:05:57
(Speaker 11)
around. Oh, wow.

0:05:58
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, so I did that for like nine months. Yeah, and that's a major shipping area. Oh, yes. Absolutely, absolutely. One of the most important in the world.

0:06:06
(Speaker 2)
So your Navy career, we've had some conversations about that. A lot of times you were like, hey, this is a, I'm glad I'm doing this. But also times you were like, I need to find a new line of work.

0:06:16
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, and I always sum it up like this right here. When you're in the military, you know, I call them come to Jesus moments. You know, where you doing stuff and you say like, man, gotta be a better way. This ain't it, this just not it. And I think my second come to Jesus moment was

0:06:39
(Speaker 1)
I was on my second cruise and we was going around the Horn of South America and this was in July, July and if you're not familiar with that time of year that's the wintertime down there so it was like nine o'clock in the morning and I'm sorry it was like nine ten o'clock at night and we just got done this flight up and I was out on the flight deck and it was freezing.

0:07:06
(Speaker 1)
I mean, this is a cold that I've never experienced. No, I'm on the flight deck, I'm messing around with these rotorheads, and I'm looking at icebergs and all this stuff float. And I'm like, man.

0:07:16
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, because you always hear that about the Southern Ocean, that the conditions can be

0:07:20
(Speaker 11)
brutal.

0:07:21
(Speaker 1)
Yes, yes. And when I got on shore duty, that's when I went to college. When I started college and I said, you know what, I had fun working on helicopters and airplanes and all that stuff, but you know, I got to do something that's less strenuous.

0:07:37
(Speaker 2)
Right. So you started pursuing your education while you're still active duty?

0:07:40
(Speaker 1)
Absolutely. Absolutely. I enrolled at Chapman University in 92, 93 right after Desert Storm, Desert Shield. Went straight through, got my bachelor's degree. During that time frame when I got my bachelor's degree, that's when my daughter was born. And at that time, after my daughter was born, I said okay I'm gonna get out. You know, because I don't know about you as an Air Force. Navy and Air Force is different with trying to raise children.

0:08:06
(Speaker 2)
We certainly, I mean, not that the Air Force doesn't deploy, but your life on base is a lot more like a regular J-O-B. Like, I didn't have to stare down six month deployments, rotations on a ship where you're basically, there's times where you're incommunicado with

0:08:20
(Speaker 1)
your family, you know, not being able to talk to them and that was my situation in the early 90s because my daughter was born in 94. Mm hmm. Right and now back then, you know, we didn't have internet and I

0:08:36
(Speaker 1)
don't know. FaceTime. What's

0:08:37
(Speaker 2)
that? You you at the mercy of a letter. Brutal. Brutal. But when you when you put it like that, you know, it was only the 90s, like I was a teenager back then, but you're 100% right.

0:08:46
(Speaker 1)
It was at the mercy of a letter and a phone call, man.

0:08:49
(Speaker 2)
No email. Mail call became real important.

0:08:51
(Speaker 1)
Oh my goodness, I was so happy to get a bill, man. Man, you being deployed for six months, man, and we get mail call every, what, three weeks? I'm like, somebody's thinking about me.

0:09:05
(Speaker 2)
It's kind of funny. I mean, some things in the military change. I mean, now communication is a lot more easier. Like when I was sent to Kuwait, I could FaceTime with my wife and kids. So it was like, I could be there to a certain degree. But on the same token, mail call is still look forward to.

0:09:20
(Speaker 2)
Like when you get that care package, you don't care what's in there you're like this just made my day. You just don't know how far Skittles went. Someone send you some Skittles man. Everybody. Yes. Same deployment to Kuwait. There was a time we got care packages. I think it was an organization sending us stuff. Yeah. But they mailed it to our address and they sent us a bunch of Girl Scout cookies. Oh my goodness. People were ready to attack each other over thin mints and samosas. Absolutely.

0:09:51
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. So yeah. And when my daughter was born, I said, I can't, I can't raise my child like this, you know, because in the Navy, way we do do our rotations is a seashore rotation, right? And depending on your job, what type of job you have, depends on the percentage of time you spend out at sea, okay? And I was one of the lucky ones, right? Because they game it out over a 20-year career, right? Because they, they game it out over a 20 year career, right? So they say

0:10:25
(Speaker 1)
over 20 year career, aviation machine is made 50% of your time is on land. This percent of our time is out to sea. Okay. When you're going out to sea, this is like you do a four year contract out of those four years, you're going to be out to sea three. Jeez. You okay? That is a huge percent. That's way more than I thought it was going to be. Yeah, you're going to be out to sea three. And I was on a 50-50 contract.

0:10:46
(Speaker 18)
Right.

0:10:47
(Speaker 1)
And when I say three years, you got to look at, OK, we're going to six months. The second I'm getting ready to go on a six-month deployment, right? Before I go on that deployment, we three weeks there. Boom. Then you do your six month deployment. Come back home for six or seven months. You start it all over again.

0:11:07
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, that's a brutal rotation.

0:11:08
(Speaker 1)
It's brutal. And I was 50-50. Now think about the guys who were machinist mates, whole techs, who actually lived on the ship. Their sea rotation was 90-10.

0:11:19
(Speaker 2)
Oh my gosh. So that ship was their home. Yeah, you never spend any time on 10% of your time

0:11:28
(Speaker 17)
back home, that's awful.

0:11:30
(Speaker 1)
And the only time that those guys got shore time was at the end of a contract. They got shore duty. And when they got shore duty, they weren't doing their job. Because if you are a whole tech, a machinist mate, or an attrition of a ship, you can't do that job on land. It's only done on ship. So now

0:11:51
(Speaker 1)
you're probably on base guarding a gate. No kidding. Yeah, being first lieutenant, commander, whatever it may be. It's a shore duty billet where you just on land.

0:12:01
(Speaker 2)
And then you fill whatever position they got for you. On that base. Oh, wow. Yes.

0:12:05
(Speaker 1)
And then when it's time for you to go back at sea, you go back to a ship.

0:12:08
(Speaker 2)
That's kind of nuts. Because I'm like, my job never changed when I deployed. It was the same. It just switched to a training mission when I got back to the States.

0:12:17
(Speaker 1)
And then deployed becomes real world. And what made my job so good, 50-50, is that when it was time for me to rotate to shore duty, I still could do my job on the shore because we had a lot of training commands and training squadrons that never went out to sea. They didn't deploy. So when pilots come out of school or whatever it may be, they go to what we call the RAG. I don't know if y'all call it a rag, but we call it a rag squadron.

0:12:48
(Speaker 2)
Would you go to like Miramar and do the same thing on the flight line there?

0:12:51
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. Do the same thing in Miramar. All that. Yeah.

0:12:53
(Speaker 2)
That makes sense.

0:12:53
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. All that. Yeah. So, and so I said, you know what? I can't do this. I can't raise my kid like this. No, I want my child to know her father

0:13:05
(Speaker 8)
Yeah

0:13:05
(Speaker 1)
And if you get into a rotation like that four years four years four years Now your child will be 17 18 years old and she don't you know, the dad's for you know What your dad's favorite color is because you never home

0:13:19
(Speaker 2)
Really tough on the family. Oh, so you made the call to, and then what happened to you after that? Oh, wow.

0:13:25
(Speaker 8)
That's funny.

0:13:26
(Speaker 2)
Did you leave the Navy with your bachelor's in business administration?

0:13:31
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, I left the Navy with my bachelor's degree in business administration, and I got this job. I moved to Vegas, okay, because at the time that I got out, I did my research. It's not like, I don't wanna get out of the Navy, I'm just gonna get out. No, no, no, no, it wasn't none of that.

0:13:48
(Speaker 1)
I did like three or four years of homework before I got out, right? And I had narrowed it down, we're talking 97 now, right? I had narrowed it down to like three cities in America that was like blowing up. I'm like, yeah, I mean, you had to be an idiot not to go to one of these cities and not be OK.

0:14:08
(Speaker 5)
Oh, yeah.

0:14:09
(Speaker 2)
It's always kind of funny when you look at the population increase of Las Vegas year over year, because it just never stops growing.

0:14:16
(Speaker 1)
Right, right. And it was, at that time, it was Oklahoma City, Las Vegas, Nevada, and Denver, Colorado.

0:14:23
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, Colorado's another one.

0:14:25
(Speaker 5)
Yes.

0:14:25
(Speaker 2)
Always growing.

0:14:26
(Speaker 1)
Always growing. Those were three cities. The housing was cheap. I'm not going to say affordable. I'm going to say cheap, because at the time I got out, you could buy a house cheaper than you could rent.

0:14:37
(Speaker 5)
Oh, yeah.

0:14:38
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. So I said, OK, let's go to Vegas. And me, my ex-wife, and my four-year-old daughter, we all got in our U-Haul truck.

0:14:48
(Speaker 2)
Moving from San Diego to Vegas.

0:14:51
(Speaker 1)
Moving from San Diego to Vegas, right? And I answered an ad in the paper for a customer service representative for this computer software company, right? And we're talking about the late 90s. And my attitude was, hey, if I can fix an airplane,

0:15:13
(Speaker 1)
keep that bad boy up in the air, I can do anything.

0:15:17
(Speaker 2)
That's a good attitude.

0:15:18
(Speaker 1)
I can do anything. So I just gotta sell myself. So I went in this interview for a computer software company.

0:15:26
(Speaker 3)
You know computers?

0:15:27
(Speaker 4)
Yeah.

0:15:28
(Speaker 2)
Of course I do.

0:15:31
(Speaker 15)
You know how to program it on?

0:15:32
(Speaker 13)
Yeah, I know how to do all that.

0:15:36
(Speaker 1)
So, you know, and this was a startup, right? So they just need, you know, they just kind of need a body, I think, you know? So I got hired for this startup company called PurchasePro.com. And at that time, what PurchasePro.com was,

0:15:51
(Speaker 1)
it was a computer software company that allowed business to do all the buying and selling over the internet. And what made it revolutionary at that time is when a property like MGM Grand said like they want to buy everything for all their restaurants.

0:16:09
(Speaker 1)
They had everything on a spreadsheet. And this spreadsheet was 10,000 items long. Wow. Easy. And they would have to sit at the fax machine, send that spreadsheet to 15, 20 vendors. And they have to wait for that same spreadsheet to come back through that

0:16:25
(Speaker 1)
fax machine, get the right bid, create a purchase order, fax that purchase order to, you know, and we developed the software to allow them to do all that stuff over the internet.

0:16:36
(Speaker 2)
I mean, at the time it was novel. That's extraordinary.

0:16:39
(Speaker 1)
Like, hey. And they was allowed to do all that stuff over the internet. And it was really fun because I can honestly say I had my foot in the door or I actually saw the evolution of the internet, businesses, business, Instacart, all that stuff. Because that's what we was doing.

0:16:59
(Speaker 1)
You know, Purchase Pro, Ariba, and PeopleSoft. They were the three biggest companies in America doing that.

0:17:07
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, so what you did, you laid the foundation for Shopify or whatever. All this stuff, yeah. That everybody uses now.

0:17:13
(Speaker 1)
And this is what makes this kits really exciting, it's because we went public. So I got caught up in the dot-com boom.

0:17:21
(Speaker 2)
All right, the late 90s dot-com boom. All right. The late 90s dot-com boom. Early 2000s. I remember that.

0:17:29
(Speaker 1)
When I say I was in the middle of it, I was in the middle of it because when Purchase Pro went public, and I didn't know anything about stocks and everything like that, right? Purchase Pro went public in, I wanna say September 98, right? September 98, okay? And we start, we had an IPO price of $27, right? 98, day one.

0:17:57
(Speaker 1)
By the end of the day, it was trading for 80 bucks. Wow. One day, tripled. And it just kept going up and up and up. You know, in the side of three months, that stock had got up to like 400 bucks, split.

0:18:14
(Speaker 11)
Holy moly.

0:18:15
(Speaker 16)
Keep going on up.

0:18:16
(Speaker 15)
And I'm like, whoa, paper millionaire.

0:18:19
(Speaker 8)
So, so, so.

0:18:22
(Speaker 1)
No, but I had options and everything. I couldn't sell it there, you know, so. And I had options and everything. I couldn't sell it. And I rode that bad boy all the way up, and I rode it all the way down. And it was a nice lesson learned, because PurchasePro.com, if you're not familiar,

0:18:39
(Speaker 1)
are you familiar with Enron?

0:18:40
(Speaker 10)
Oh, yeah.

0:18:41
(Speaker 2)
How they were fudging the books to make it seem like everything was inflated, their stocks were inflated, when in reality their business was broke.

0:18:49
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, yeah. We was a mirror image of Enron. Oh no. And we had all the drama of an Enron. Unfortunately, the owner of the company, Junior Johnson, he was indicted for embezzling. Vice President of Sales, he got six or seven years for-

0:19:07
(Speaker 2)
Securities fraud?

0:19:08
(Speaker 1)
Securities fraud.

0:19:09
(Speaker 2)
Oh my gosh, so it really was that bad.

0:19:11
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, Marketing Vice President committed suicide.

0:19:15
(Speaker 14)
Holy moly.

0:19:16
(Speaker 1)
So when I say I wrote it up, I wrote it all the way back now.

0:19:20
(Speaker 2)
So did any of that push you to take another look at your education for your master's degree?

0:19:25
(Speaker 4)
Oh, hell yes!

0:19:27
(Speaker 1)
At that time, you know, I had finished my master's degree because that was another reason why I moved to Vegas Because I had started my master's degree right before I got out of the Navy and I was halfway done Okay, and Vegas had Webster University here So I was able to just come here go go to Webster University, and finish my master's degree. While I was working at Purchase Pro, I said to myself, man, I got to get back to the government.

0:19:51
(Speaker 1)
I ain't dealing with this no more. You know, when you're working with corporate, you know, you live quarter to quarter.

0:20:00
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, and especially a startup. My cousin used to work for Zappos, a company you're familiar with here in Las Vegas. Kind of a similar boom and bust. I mean, they were bought by Amazon. But he was an accountant there and it was the same thing.

0:20:12
(Speaker 2)
He's like, especially in the bean counter department. Yeah. The quarter is like crunch time.

0:20:18
(Speaker 1)
Yes. Yeah. After about, you know, three, four years of the fun, I'm like, man, I gotta get up outta here. I'm tired of just living quarter to quarter. You know, everybody, I used to see people literally sneak up on their computers

0:20:35
(Speaker 1)
at the end of the quarter to see if they gonna get one of those riff letters, they gonna get fired

0:20:38
(Speaker 4)
or something like that.

0:20:39
(Speaker 2)
So more stable employment.

0:20:41
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, yeah, so I got outta there and that's when I got hired at the Social Security Administration. And that's where I ended up retiring from. I was able to take the 10 years that I had in the military, and I was able to apply that at the Social Security Administration.

0:20:55
(Speaker 1)
And boom, I was able to retire at 50, man.

0:20:58
(Speaker 2)
Excellent. You had some interesting information about your PhD from Southeastern, right?

0:21:06
(Speaker 1)
Nova Southeastern University, yeah.

0:21:08
(Speaker 2)
So did you start pursuing your PhD while you were at the Social Security Administration?

0:21:12
(Speaker 1)
Believe it or not, yeah. And it's funny how that happened, because I had no intentions on getting a doctorate degree. None whatsoever. I was like, hey, man, this is it. I got my government job.

0:21:22
(Speaker 1)
I got my pension right here. You know, kid almost grown.

0:21:26
(Speaker 2)
And upper level education.

0:21:28
(Speaker 1)
Upper level education. I'm like, man, I'm good, I'm good. But I got this letter from the VA. The VA said, hey, you got about $30,000 of a GI Bill left.

0:21:38
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, unused education benefits.

0:21:39
(Speaker 1)
A used education, what you gonna do with it, right? If you don't use it, it's gonna go away. So I'm like, well, I got a master's degree. I've never been the type of person to regress. I'm not gonna go out and get another damn master's degree or another bachelor's degree. I'm like, well, let me try to get a doctorate, you know? And I just started pursuing the doctorate.

0:21:59
(Speaker 1)
You know, I think the first thing I did was, could they give you a test, this pass fail test, and I said, okay, if I pass this test, cause it's equivalent to like a GMAT, or it's equivalent to the LSAT, you know for lawyers and stuff like that. I forgot what the name of it was,

0:22:14
(Speaker 1)
but at that time, I took it, I passed it, okay. Same philosophy. If I can keep an airplane in the air, I can do this. And if I can pass this test, I can do this doctoral program. I can do this doctoral program, just that simple. And I just started pursuing that. And I started doing it. And believe it or not, after about two years, two,

0:22:34
(Speaker 1)
three years in it, my mom got sick. She had cancer. And it's amazing how God will put people in your life to kind of open your eyes about things. Because when my mom got sick and she was in Georgia, I was out here,

0:22:47
(Speaker 1)
we was going back and forth to take care of everything. I said, you know what? I don't need this added pressure. I got to deal with more, I don't need this. And I had literally got all the paperwork and everything to put everything on hold until I dealt with my mom, right?

0:23:00
(Speaker 1)
Right. Right, right, and then I was at the hospital and I was talking to this one Talking to the preacher and she was like, well, she was just counseling me and she was like, you know what? I I can't sit up and say I know what you're going through because my mom is still alive and I'm not Going through that but what I will tell you is this right here life don't stop the world don't stop Okay, and if you gonna sit up here and I did not tell her that I was gonna put everything

0:23:25
(Speaker 6)
on hold.

0:23:26
(Speaker 2)
She was just-

0:23:26
(Speaker 5)
This is just a conversation.

0:23:27
(Speaker 1)
This is just a conversation, right? And she was like, life don't stop. The world is gonna keep turning and going, you know? So you can't just stop everything and deal with this. You're gonna have to figure out a way to do both. And I chugged on through. Wow. I chugged on through and did both. And thank God I had a lot of friends in my cohort

0:23:46
(Speaker 1)
that I was going along with my doctorate. Because it is challenging to get a doctorate. Because this is the crazy part about it. When I first started the doctorate, we had 28 people in my cohort. Because it was a hybrid at that time.

0:24:00
(Speaker 1)
Because it wasn't like right now everything is online.

0:24:03
(Speaker 2)
Today, everything's online. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. I'm guessing web-based courses weren't a thing back then.

0:24:08
(Speaker 7)
Yeah. Yo.

0:24:09
(Speaker 2)
When they were just starting to come online.

0:24:10
(Speaker 1)
It was hybrid. Yeah. So, and it was on the weekends, right?

0:24:14
(Speaker 2)
Oh wait, this is in 08. Yeah.

0:24:15
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, 08. Yeah. And it was on weekends and stuff, you know, So the first two years, I was in class. And then the last two years was web-based and dissertation. I was like, okay, I can go ahead and do both. And the cohort started with about 28 people Friday night. By Sunday morning, that same weekend, it weaned down to 15.

0:24:42
(Speaker 11)
Whoa.

0:24:43
(Speaker 2)
In a single weekend?

0:24:44
(Speaker 1)
In a single weekend. Single weekend, it weaned down to 15. Whoa. In a single weekend? In a single weekend. Single weekend, it weaned down to 15. Because I remember Dr. Nixon, this is what he said when I was going through the doctor. He told all of us. He said, I'm gonna tell you guys just right now

0:24:55
(Speaker 1)
about this doctor program. The doctor program is not about who's the smartest or who's the sharpest. It's about who has the most willpower, who has the most desire. Okay, because if you're the type of person that can't take rejection, this is

0:25:11
(Speaker 2)
not the program for you. Well, you kind of mentioned, we were chatting a little bit beforehand about how you approached your dissertation with some preconceived notions. And once you started digging into the numbers they didn't pan out. So that can be pretty disheartening. You're trying to prove your own theory.

0:25:27
(Speaker 4)
Yeah, trying to lie about my own theory, right?

0:25:30
(Speaker 13)
Yeah.

0:25:31
(Speaker 1)
You know, so by the end of the first weekend, we had got down to like 15 people. And by the end of the first semester, we had got down to eight. Whoa. Eight people. And that core eight people, all of us finished. All of us graduated, and thank God for friends. You know, because they're the ones that push you along.

0:25:57
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. Because there was times that I like, man, because once you get to the dissertation phase, it's all on your pace. Now I know Dr. Lasavia, Dr. Lasavia, she would call me and say,

0:26:08
(Speaker 1)
hey Fred, you did your quantitative analysis and stuff like that. And so she keeping me accountable and stuff. So yeah. And one thing, once you start going through a doctorate program, you have to find a topic,

0:26:24
(Speaker 1)
something that you're passionate about, something that a lot of lived experiences that you can bring to the table, because that's what helped me a lot going through my bachelor's degree and my master's degree. I'm up here, they're talking theories

0:26:39
(Speaker 1)
and concepts and everything, and I'm like, hey man, I did that. Okay, I can give you a real live scenario of corporate government whatever, you know? So when you're doing a dissertation, you have to have that type of passion.

0:26:53
(Speaker 1)
And so that's why I did my dissertation on what I call Generations Lost. And what made me wanna do that was, I was working at, when I was at the Social Security Administration right so lady came down now no I'm down I'm updating the address and everything and she said well can you help me with my daughter's address too

0:27:15
(Speaker 1)
and I happen to look at her age and when she started getting benefits and stuff I'm like man this isn't it I think she was in the late 70s early 80s she had been getting benefits. Okay. Now we're talking about in the 2000s now. Yeah, long time. She was talking, then she like okay can you help me with my daughter? And I looked up her daughter. I'm like damn, she started getting benefits in the mid-90s. So now I got mama and daughter all getting benefits for the last 30 years, 25, 30 years.

0:27:52
(Speaker 1)
You know, and then they just kinda start the wheels spinning. Start the wheels spinning. And then I just saw that trend. I saw that trend as, you know, like, family members, oh, okay, okay. So that is what inspired me to do Generations Lost.

0:28:08
(Speaker 2)
Interesting topic to choose, and your conclusions were that it's less systematic and more individualized than you anticipated.

0:28:16
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, that's where it gets really controversial, because it all depends on what someone's intent is. If your intent is to put the truth out there, put reality out there, then my work is spot-on. Okay, because the example I was giving you when we first came in here, okay, I had a group of analysis, I know a group of about 50 individuals. Okay, and out of the 50 individuals,

0:28:50
(Speaker 1)
10 were receiving benefits and they had kids and whatever receiving, but the other 40 was fine. Yeah. Okay? So if you got a group of 10 people out of 50, you can't blame the system.

0:29:02
(Speaker 2)
That's interesting. I can't wait to read this book, actually. I really wanna understand it. So you got any good war stories or any fun thing that happened to you in the Navy or during your time in school you want to bring up?

0:29:15
(Speaker 1)
You know what? This is the funniest thing that I like to talk about that happened when I was with the Social Security Administration. And oh my God, this started a life of its own.

0:29:26
(Speaker 2)
Interesting.

0:29:27
(Speaker 1)
This happened in 08, this man came in the office, his name was Wesley Warren, okay? And people, you can Google Wesley Warren, okay? Wesley Warren came in the office and he had, when he came in the office, he had a testicle that was the size of a volleyball. Oh, yeah

0:29:48
(Speaker 1)
The medical condition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah the medical condition, right? So this is how the story gets funny, you know It got funny to got serious and they're like man, this is a nightmare. But we got funny was okay I was in the in the office. No doing it and the security guard came up to me And he was like Fred Fred Man, you should see the person you got to talk to next

0:30:13
(Speaker 1)
He's like, that's his testicle This is stumble No It is right. So he comes back there to the lobby and I'm like and I start interviewing him He's like oh, oh it is right, and I said okay. What happened. How did this happen? And he was like well

0:30:35
(Speaker 1)
I have always been a well-endowed man And then one day I had this coughing spell and it hurt so bad And then when I woke up the coughing spell and it hurt so bad. And then when I woke up the next day, my testicle was the size of a softball and it had been growing ever since. And then by the time he got to the Social Security Administration, that bad boy was

0:30:56
(Speaker 1)
the size of a basketball, right?

0:30:58
(Speaker 12)
Oh my goodness.

0:30:59
(Speaker 1)
So let's go ahead and fast forward a little bit. We take the claim. He gets approved, right? Now he's little bit. We take the claim. He gets approved. Now he's awarded benefits. He starts getting checks. And this is where Wesley Warren, it takes a life of its own.

0:31:12
(Speaker 1)
Okay, my man Wesley Warren, he starts hawking it. And when I say hawking it, I mean going out there trying to sell it. Going on these talk shows and radio shows and stuff. The first radio show he went on was the Howard Stern Show.

0:31:25
(Speaker 2)
Oh man, so this guy's kind of famous then for this.

0:31:28
(Speaker 4)
Oh yes.

0:31:29
(Speaker 2)
And he came into your office.

0:31:30
(Speaker 1)
He was my case as a matter of fact. So he went to the Howard Stern Show, right? And this is where it starts getting really dicey because the type of benefits that he was getting is you can't have income coming in, right, you know, you can't have revenue streams coming in getting welfare.

0:31:50
(Speaker 11)
Oh, right.

0:31:51
(Speaker 10)
You know what I'm saying?

0:31:52
(Speaker 2)
People paying him for his story?

0:31:53
(Speaker 6)
Yeah.

0:31:54
(Speaker 7)
Uh-huh.

0:31:55
(Speaker 1)
Yeah, so he goes on Howard Stern Show, and next thing you know, and money start pouring in. And then it just start taking a life of its own. Okay, he went on Howard Stern, then next thing you know, he's on Dr. Oz, and then he tried to do a reality show.

0:32:16
(Speaker 1)
Because this, we're talking about 2008, 2010, that was the reality boom and stuff. Yeah, and we had these cameras and stuff. Oh yeah. Yeah, and we had these cameras and stuff coming down to the Social Security Administration with a production crew and here's this dude, and I'm not exaggerating.

0:32:29
(Speaker 2)
Following him into your office?

0:32:30
(Speaker 9)
Yeah!

0:32:31
(Speaker 2)
Wow, that's wild.

0:32:32
(Speaker 7)
That's crazy.

0:32:33
(Speaker 1)
And what makes it crazy is, this is what made it comical. All right, by that time, it had got up to like 125 pounds. About 125 pounds. 125 pounds. Okay, so he could not buy ordinary pants So what this dude would do is he would get a hoodie

0:32:50
(Speaker 1)
and he put his legs in the arms of the hoodie and take the Hood part of the hoodie and wrap it around it and tie it up And then he would walk down to the Social Security Administration With a crate and a pillow and then he would sit down there on the crate, he'd sit down on the chair, put the crate down, put it, and bam.

0:33:08
(Speaker 1)
So every time he came to the Social Security Administration, the whole office is rolling.

0:33:16
(Speaker 8)
Wow, that is a wild story.

0:33:19
(Speaker 1)
And if you Google Wesley Warren, cause he did a special on Channel 8 too, he was on channel eight. So they show him walking to the bus,

0:33:29
(Speaker 7)
holding his crate.

0:33:31
(Speaker 2)
Oh my goodness.

0:33:32
(Speaker 1)
Yeah. And it really got bad with Wesley Warren because at that time we had to, as an agency and as a district, we had to, as an agency and as a district, we had to protect ourselves because now this is starting to get in the media. And at that time, there was three big cases,

0:33:54
(Speaker 1)
we're old, 2010, 2011, three huge cases that was out there that was just all over the media.

0:34:01
(Speaker 6)
Remember Octomaw?

0:34:02
(Speaker 2)
I remember.

0:34:03
(Speaker 1)
Oh yeah, the districts and offices down there, man they went through hell with that case man because this woman's getting like 40, 50 thousand dollars a month in services and everything. Wow, no kidding. Yeah. I guess I

0:34:15
(Speaker 2)
didn't know that she was pulling social security and then this guy, you know, cameras coming into

0:34:20
(Speaker 1)
your office. You know and now and then there was another case in Oklahoma City, you know do know On TLC, you know, he's getting benefits. He's like Permanent baby and stuff. So he's in a crib, you know with a onesie on and everything because he's a baby You know and it hits the media and he's getting so secure than welfare benefits. So and There's a revenue stream with that stuff. Okay. They're not doing that for free. There's a huge revenue stream with that. So as a district you

0:34:50
(Speaker 1)
have to be on top of it to see okay is money coming in? If money's coming in we gotta spend it whatever it may be. So yeah it became a nightmare man because he went from dollar to Oz and then he ended up he ended up doing his final show on TLC and cuz it hit he had bloomed up to like 450 pounds and he was bedridden okay he just so something had to be done. Now mind you, Dr. Oz was ready to take care of the problem I think 2010, 2011. Wow. But he like, no, but Dr. Oz

0:35:41
(Speaker 1)
wanted exclusive media rights to the whole situation He's like no. No, I want to keep the rights to so fast forward to like

0:36:01
(Speaker 2)
He ended up getting it removed and they filmed it on TLC and no god rest his soul. He passed away from diabetes Oh, man. Yeah. But yeah. Wild case Fred. Yeah. It is not the war story I was expecting. Well to leave it on a positive note. You got any advice for active duty guys and veterans you know guys that want to pursue their education. What's your advice to them. I'd never heard it put that way but if you can fix a jet you can

0:36:21
(Speaker 1)
go to school. That's really good. I like that. You know, my first thing is that there is a life after the military, okay? And you are not institutionalized like everybody think you may be. You know, a lot of it is really a mindset. Being in the military is a job, okay?

0:36:40
(Speaker 1)
And that's how you have to approach it. This job has come to an end. Now I'm gonna do another job You know and you can do it, you know, especially in this Time frame the opportunities. Oh my god, and I talked to my dog me and my sister We talked about this all the time because my sister she is in her 70s and she grew up in the Jim Crow era So she grew up with segregated schools

0:37:05
(Speaker 1)
and all this other stuff and everything. And she said, you know what Fred, it's such a blessing to where I can see my brother who became a doctor and then my nieces and nephews, they all went to school, they got degrees. And now her grandchild has just enrolled

0:37:22
(Speaker 1)
at University of Wisconsin. So the potential is there, the opportunity is there. It's just a matter of getting all that negative toxicity out of your life and just pursuing and doing what you want to do. Because man, I remember the 80s and 90s, those opportunities were not like today. Not like today. Cause when COVID happened, COVID kind of opened my eyes.

0:37:50
(Speaker 1)
I'm like, wait a minute. This is probably the most catastrophic thing I'm going to see in my lifetime. And I know people that are quitting jobs and getting another one.

0:38:02
(Speaker 5)
What?

0:38:05
(Speaker 1)
I went through the housing crisis in 08, nobody was quitting their job.

0:38:10
(Speaker 2)
Oh yeah, yeah, you gotta hold on to that.

0:38:12
(Speaker 4)
Nobody was quitting their job.

0:38:13
(Speaker 1)
But when COVID happened, I was like, man, I ain't doing this no more, I'm gonna go find me something else. You know, so it's a beautiful era to be in.

0:38:21
(Speaker 2)
Yeah, and it's a lot like you put it when you're timing the Navy. You're like, you know, I want to be here for my family. People are starting to examine that in their lives. They're like, yeah, this job isn't fulfilling. I mean, a lot of jobs aren't. Yeah. But you also reach like, you know, I only got one life to live

0:38:37
(Speaker 2)
and I don't want to spend it doing this every day. So I'm going to pursue whatever opportunities I can get my hands on. And you know that education unlocks a lot of those doors.

0:38:47
(Speaker 1)
Yes, it does. And I am a education guy. If you talk to me, first thing that will come out my mouth is, you going to school? You going to get a degree? What's up?

0:38:56
(Speaker 1)
That's the first thing I'm going to say. Because the days are over when you get a high school diploma and you think you can just go through life. You'll be able to get a job and get by. Everybody's going to get by in life, but do you want to excel, have a productive life?

0:39:14
(Speaker 3)
You know?

0:39:15
(Speaker 1)
Education. All right, Fred. Well, thanks for coming on the podcast.

0:39:18
(Speaker 2)
It was a great interview. Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I enjoyed every moment of it.

0:39:21
(Speaker 1)
All right. All right. Thank you.